How do I order company to stop/start without affecting the attached scouts?

[kneecaps]

The topic says it all really. I'm new to ATF (after BCT).

Also if anybody has any tips, my units seem to get stuck all the time in the tutorial (and all bunch up on top of eachother).

[kbluck]

The topic says it all really. I'm new to ATF (after BCT).

Also if anybody has any tips, my units seem to get stuck all the time in the tutorial (and all bunch up on top of eachother).


Detach the scouts. Otherwise there's no way to prevent them from responding to heirarchy orders.

My guess for the bunching issue is that you are using formation "none" for your heirarchies, which means the units all head for the same waypoint and eventually will all end up packed onto the same point if left to their own devices. 'None' is useful mainly for threading units down tight defiles.

I'm not sure what you might mean by "getting stuck"; they could be blocked by steep terrain, or by obstacles, or perhaps you're perceiving some other issue as being "stuck". A screen shot along with some commentary on the actions you took to get them to that point would help diagnose the issue.

--- Kevin

[CPangracs]

The topic says it all really. I'm new to ATF (after BCT).

Also if anybody has any tips, my units seem to get stuck all the time in the tutorial (and all bunch up on top of eachother).
Select "View", then "Hierarchy Tree", click on the scout platoon you want to detach and drag it to a blank area of the hierarchy view.

This will allow you to move your scouts independently of your company and vice versa.

Hope this helps!

curt

[kneecaps]

Thanks for the input, detaching the scouts works great!

With the bunching issue, it seems that its certainly something to do with the terrain, I get green X's when planning a route so I adjust the route to remove these...however I think that prehaps some vehicles are still unable to pass. I think its just likely that the terrain where the ROK Armor goes through at the start is very difficult.

Ah, I understood from the tutorial that 'None' formation was the best for diffcult terrain...I'll put in a column possibly.

[kbluck]

With the bunching issue, it seems that its certainly something to do with the terrain, I get green X's when planning a route so I adjust the route to remove these...however I think that prehaps some vehicles are still unable to pass. I think its just likely that the terrain where the ROK Armor goes through at the start is very difficult.

Ah, I understood from the tutorial that 'None' formation was the best for diffcult terrain...I'll put in a column possibly.

It is! However, you need to keep an eye on it, because if you let the vehicles run out their entire path to the last waypoint, they'll end up stacked on each other. The trick is to set "None" when they enter the restricted space, and return them to a proper formation once they're out of it. Unfortunately, there is no way I am aware of to "attach" formation orders to specific waypoints, so you have to monitor the situation and do it manually. Well, technically I guess you can do it with some fancy manipulation of heirarchy missions, but that would be a quite advanced technique.

In a nutshell, the automated pathfinding is not very good in tight terrain. (A not uncommon problem for most RTS games.) If you're trying to maneuver through difficult terrain, which describes most maps in RT, you have to micromanage to a certain extent as a practical matter.

As for the green X, sometimes you can create a path with none that will still get units stuck. It seems the path is evaluated in a straight line, but units actually move back and forth on a square grid, "bouncing" to either side of the path when moving diagonally. I have found that in really tight areas, you have to find a clear path with segments only in the cardinal directions, due north, west, etc, with 90-degree turns. Diagonal segments are difficult to evaluate and often end up getting stuck, even when the path seems clear when planned.

This is also an issue when moving through breaches. I always do my best to orient breaches in a cardinal direction.

--- Kevin

[kneecaps]

Right, thanks for the pointer...I'm running into an additional fustration now. Using in-line paste. If I in line paste my platoons with a path it seems to work fine...however if I click on the Company HQ unit it seems to somehow make the paths non-inline)..like a normal route paste not inline.

[kneecaps]

AIEEEEE! Fustration! My armor wont move, not stopped, not 'stuck'!
Half my Mech units decided to ignore their waypoints and 'exit' the right side of the map!

Is there a more open map that I can practice on, something along the lines of NTC training from BCT?

I think I need to get used to how this hiarchy system works in RT ...:D

[Pat Proctor]

Try Beach Party II.

You can maneuver LAVs around in the ocean til you get your, well, sea legs :)

[Cabron66]

Hey guys. I'm just getting started as well and am hitting pretty much the same problems. The main issue, as I see it, is that orders given to the commanding unit supersede all other orders. If I order the company commander into a box formation, for example, all units in the company will abandon their orders and attempt to form a box. Seems logical enough now that I see it, but for a few minutes there I was getting ready to light my laptop up like a torch.

It took me an awful lot of maneuvering and fidgeting to get the South Korean forces through the tight terrain (in DMZ Sweep II) and onto the unimproved road. In the end I found I had to detach all of the units from their command vehicle and sort of push them along until they were in open ground.

Is this the way things are done? Do you guys end up breaking companies into smaller units all the time or did I just overly complicate matters? My guess is that you should start by giving orders to the companies and then modify the individual platoons as circumstances dictate.

Is it always the case that orders given to the command vehicle are immediately applied to all subordinate units? If so, how does one reposition the command vehicle without the entire company attempting to follow the same orders?

Cheers

Paul

p.s. I am starting to see the depth of this game and it's impressive. Must admit, I was a bit skeptical there for a bit but all that is behind me. Once the AT missiles started flying I was there.

[Pat Proctor]

Paul,

If you ever want to do something just to one vehicle, turn off companies and platoons (by selecting the platoon and company icon on the toolbar). What you are actually experiencing is that it is very easy to accidently select the "flag pole" for the unit and give the order to the platoon or company, instead of just the vehicle.

You can also "detach" vehicles by right-clicking on them and selecting "detach". You can "Recall" them in the same way, and they will return to their unit automatically.

Curt described the process of removing platoons from companies (using the Hierarchy window). This works the same for vehicles.

[Cabron66]

Right. There is a difference between selecting the flagpole and the vehicle itself. Damn. I should have seen that. Thanks. OK, maybe I'll have another go at this before I go to bed.

Cheers

Paul

[kneecaps]

AHHH! ALAS! So thats why I was having problems with in line paste....Clicking the company flag (accidently) was applying the unwanted movement path and replacing previous in-line pastes!

I too had extreme difficult getting the ROK Armor through the terrain...they would just keep stopping...and stopping and stopping.

I really like the different levels of command, just how big of a battle can you control, can one control an entire brigade?

[CPangracs]

AHHH! ALAS! So thats why I was having problems with in line paste....Clicking the company flag (accidently) was applying the unwanted movement path and replacing previous in-line pastes!

I too had extreme difficult getting the ROK Armor through the terrain...they would just keep stopping...and stopping and stopping.

I really like the different levels of command, just how big of a battle can you control, can one control an entire brigade?
You could, feasibly, control a Brigade, but this game is designed more towards Battalion and below. You can see by the depth of control available to you that it may cause you a bit of frustration. You will also be pushing the limits of your computer system with a BCT's worth of stuff on the map, AND the enemy units! I encourage you to give it a try, though.

Curt

[Pat Proctor]

If you use a flat map (like the Iraq maps in ATF), you can probably put a BDE v. BDE on the map, feasibly, with a sub 1.2 GHz processor. With a 3 GHz +, on a flat map, you might be able to get a BDE vs DIV on the map, if the OPFOR is controlling the division, and there is not too much mission planning going on in the OPFOR script.

In multiplayer, a BN v BDE is about as big as an engagement can get.

[kneecaps]

Wooh! I've got to give that a go (my machine is a 3ghz+ monster) :D

Are the ATF (or similar) maps available for RT users?

P.S. I'm coping a lot better now, not accidently clicking the company flag was the key!

[Pat Proctor]

None of the ATF maps ship with Raging Tiger.

If you decide to buy ATF later, you can install Raging Tiger OVER it, and all of the ATF scenarios will run in Raging Tiger.

[Ryan_ Murphy]

AIEEEEE! Fustration! My armor wont move, not stopped, not 'stuck'!
Half my Mech units decided to ignore their waypoints and 'exit' the right side of the map!

Is there a more open map that I can practice on, something along the lines of NTC training from BCT?

I think I need to get used to how this hiarchy system works in RT ...:D

Kneecaps,

Here's an idea. Download the ATF demo and select the "Death Valley: Task Force Attack." When you make your initial deployment instead of using the AP shown move your hierarchies away from there to avoid artillery fire and practice setting paths and formations. Make a lot of use of the "zoom in command" at various scales to see what the formations/units are doing. Showing the individual units will allow you to see them in formation as they move, say, for example, being able to see a tank platoon's vehicles in wedge formation as it moves along the path. In a way this is like watching ants. :D

As noted above when a formation reaches the end of the path (stop or moving node) it will bunch up like a someone piled up some toy vehicles. I believe that if it is an indivdual unit it will orient to the north.

What I do if for some reason I don't run the path all the way to the objective is to run past the stop node one more node. That keeps the formation intact and pointed in the correct direction. Making use of the phase lines is another way to maintain command and control to avoid this.

I encountered the same problem until I did this. Then I was able to see what was happening and take corrective action.

[kneecaps]

Awww..I should have bought ATF first!

Thanks for the suggestion! I certainly shall download the ATF demo and try out what you said.

If I understand correctly, the units will only bunch up when they reach their last node...so you dont let this happen...ahh :D

Thanks!

[Ryan_ Murphy]

Kneecaps,

You're welcome. Correct. That's what I discovered. Running one more node past the stop node or for that matter, not allowing a unit/hierararchy to get to the last node before you can add to the path will prevent this.

[Pat Proctor]

They only bunch up if you don't have a formation set. If you set a formation, they should, when they get to the last node, orient north, staying in formation.

Let me know if this is not the behavior you are seeing. Anything else is a bug.

[Ryan_ Murphy]

Patrick,

I ran through several manuevers as described above in an attempt to duplicate this and the units/formations are doing as you wrote. I admit I haven't seen this in a while and I hope I never do again.
====================
Kneecaps,

The main thing to maintain your formations in the direction you wish for them to travel is not to let them reach the last node otherwise they will orient north like Patrick says.

[kneecaps]

Understood, another small 'issue' (well not really), what do you guys do with your CO and XO 'company' units? If I want control individual platoons the CO and XO begins to feel like a spare part.

I suppose what I'm asking is...how are these units supposed to move in relation to the company platoons?

[Pat Proctor]

They would normally position themselves in a position where they can best control the whole unit. So, if your company is doing seperate, platoon operations, you would place them in the middle of the two platoons, for instance. You might try pulling the platoons you want to control OUT of their companies. Then you can control the Company headquarters units using their flag, without influencing the detached platoons.

[Ryan_ Murphy]

Kneecaps,

This may not help answer your question, but I hope it does.

Move them independently (i.e., units) and safeguard them. If they are lost you can't issue company level orders until you reorganize the company with the hierarachy tree. (see p.26 & 68) Keep the following in mind as well:

To give orders, SOP's, or paths to units, you should turn off platoons and companies using Platoon and Companies from the Echelon sub-menu of the View menu, respectively. If you attempt to order units while platoons and comapnies are visible, you may inadvertently click on a hierarchy, causing unexpected results.

This way you don't accidently wind up issuing orders thinking that they only apply to the CO and instead the orders wind up affecting the whole company.

[kbluck]

Move them independently (i.e., units) and safeguard them. If they are lost you can't issue company level orders until you reorganize the company with the hierarachy tree. (see p.26 & 68) Keep the following in mind as well:


One possibly surprising side effect of this method: Assigning a path to a unit has the effect of detaching it from its heirarchy. Doing this to both the CO and XO in a tank company, for example, renders the company "leaderless" and therefore unable to accept orders until you explicitly reattach some unit capable of company command.

I think it would be ideal if the company HQ had its own "platoon" marker. This might seem like something that could be done with the scenario editor, but unfortunately I believe in ATF making the CO subordinate to a platoon would prevent it from commanding the whole company.

If in fact you don't want the company echelon operable for a time, I think the least error-prone solution is to temporarily attach the company-command capable units to line platoons. At least then they don't have to be manipulated separately.

--- Kevin

[Ryan_ Murphy]

Kevin,

Point well taken. Thanks.