View Full Version : New John Tiller Wargame!
Jim H. Moreno
04 Aug 04, 13:47
Campaign Gettysburg (http://armchairgeneral.com/page_left_column.php?content=article_disp&article_id=269)
I'm a huge fan of Tillers games however they really need to redesign the user interface. The second screen looks just like Fulda Gap '85, North German Plain '85, ...........
Really? What about it don't you like? I personally like the fact that he uses a similar interface between the various series of games, that way I can easily transition between them.
Withdrawn...I meant graphics.
Honestly I get headaches after about an hour of playing FG'85 or NGP'85 because its stale presentation but it doesn't keep me from going on.:D They really should change it...it needs a facelift and I'm not talking about high speed 3D graphics something more along the lines of Flashpoint Germany.
I get headaches after about an hour of playing FG'85 or NGP'85 because its stale presentation
What??? :nuts:
Its just that FG is much easier on the eyes than the old style. The engine is so outdated it really needs to be updated or they need to create a new one. Most developers have wised up and given the much needed facelift to the genre and just because it looks better doesn't mean it will sacrifice game play for eye candy.
FG '85 now do you see what I'm talking about when you compare the two?
Found this on THE WARGAMER site about the game:
HPS Sims revealed today plans for the next installment in John Tiller's long-running wargame series, Campaign Gettsyburg 1863. The new wargame follows Campaign: Corinth (review), Ozark Campaign (review), and Campaign Franklin (review), and will once again be based on the same 2D, turn-based game engine. The new Gettysburg game takes the series from obscure battles to what is easily the most recognizable battle of the American Civil War, but continues Tiller's well-respected tradition of adhering to historical authenticity. Campaign Gettsyburg will allow for play on both sides of the war, with play beginning as an operational decision and a resulting tactical battle. The wargame will contain a "record breaking" 314 scenarios, including not only Gettysburg but also the battles before and after it. The majority of these new scenarios are a part of the game's non-linear campaigns. For more on the game mechanics, we recommend reviewing the past titles from American Civil War series.
HPS Sims plans to release the game in August, and pre-ordering is (or will be) available from its web store, Chips 'n Bits, and the Naval Warfare Store.
UPDATE: HPS will release Gettysburg beginning on August 6th.
Hi Marines,
I see a difference, sure, but not one that is tremendous and that would make me get on a "face lift" campaign. :)
I find it easier to "read" the Tiller map rather than the FG one. I don't know what your display settings are at, nor what options FG gives you on that, but I like to see a lot of the map at one time, which the Tiller titles allow. I also use "Auto Scroll", which removes the scroll bars, and I place the hex info area at the bottom of the map, so that gives me a better scope. Additionally the "tile" format that John uses allows for huge maps to be created, where the old Battleground hand-painted maps did not. A prime example of this benefit will be seen with this last title, Gettysburg, where there are several huge maps included.
Could the graphics be improved? Sure, but would it be worth the expense? Personally I would rather have more campaigns to fight on more maps and more topics covered rather than have development money put into "eye candy" which in essence is all that it is. Yes, that's just me personaly, I know. ;) I am more for engine enhancements, new features and maintaining the rock-solid stability of the games rather than something like this.
If we were talking about 20,000+ copies of each game going out the door then yes, by all means, more money would need to be spent, but we aren't. In fact only a fraction of that is sold. With the niche nature of this market you have to make decisions such as this...and for my money I'm fine with the way things have been done. For example, I've been playing Campaign 1776 for over 4 years now and plan on continuing for the forseeable future. I can't name any other game (from other publishers) that I have ever played that long. Usually 6 months to a year tops.
I always direct people to what's "under the hood" with these games. Not only what is included with each title, but also the fact that John gives away all engine enhancements to the entire series as each new game comes out. Dollar for dollar the Tiller titles are very much worth their cost compared to many other purchases I have made over the years. :thumb:
BTW, I have my copy of Gettysburg and it is awesome. Huge maps, a huge campaign game, everything.
Regards,
Rich
Here's a link to what Jim Cobb, editorial writer at The Wargamer has to say about "updating the engine" of HPS' series games. He says it a lot better than I can.
http://www.wargamer.com/articles/behind_the_lines_18/page2.asp
Printshop,
The link didn't work for me at first, so I'm pasting the relevant part below. Correct me please if I got the wrong segment. :cool:
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Cobb writes on the Wargamer:
HPS has released two new John Tiller games, El Alamein '42 and War over Vietnam. The first game is the 11th addition to the Panzer Campaign series and will, no doubt, be called an over-priced add-on to a "cookie cutter" system. The shallowness of such criticisms never ceases to amaze me. A well-made system can, with minimal adjustments, span a period and still provide enough variety to justify the price of a full game. For example, I played one of Tiller's Russian campaigns last month. When I played El Alamein, the feel was entirely different from the Russian slugging match, despite the similar interface. I felt like I was playing two different systems. Critics of HPS' marketing obviously have no concept of the depth of these games' Orders of Battle and Tables of Organization and Equipment. With Tiller's team, each game is researched from scratch with an incredible amount of work in distinguishing unit characteristics and creating accurate terrain. The fact that the interface doesn't demand significant changes each new game is a positive factor, not something to be called a rip-off by gamers who evidently need new buttons and icons every time they install a game. HPS will show the difference between a new game and an add-on soon. They plan to release free add-ons for North German Plain '85 and El Alamein '42. The add-ons for El Alamein are especially interesting as one will cover the early war in North Africa and another will cover a modern hypothetical campaign in the same region. Perhaps seeing these add-ons will help critics' perspective.
As he has proven repeatedly, Tiller can also create new systems. War over Vietnam is a unique look at the American air offensive during 1964 - 1972 and the North Vietnamese defense against. A pausable real-time game, the player controls flights of American aircraft striking specific targets or handling North Vietnamese radar, SAM and interceptor assets. Scenario designer Gary "Mo" Morgan has done a great job dealing with the complex details of the operations.
Of course, HPS has always provided free scenarios and add-ons. A trip to that site looking for new freebies shows eleven new scenarios and five new maps for Point of Attack 2. The new maps are especially interesting as they lay the groundwork for user-made scenarios without use of Aide de Camp 2.
I love Tillers games and will continue to buy them I just wish they would make an effort to improve the overall look.
Glenn Saunders
05 Aug 04, 17:21
"....I just wish they would make an effort to improve the overall look."
It is a matter of economics guys!
Unfortunately graphics cost money and the market simply won't support those additional cost at the current time. Maybe it will improve sometime but for now there is no margin in making improvements in this area.
Glenn
BlackRider
07 Aug 04, 09:44
Though this is my first post I've actually been following this forum for quite a while. I've just gotten into playing computer strategy games and I have to say that the information I found on here has been invaluable for helping me choose games. (I just wish I hadn't chosen so many. ) :D
I just read that this game is shipping and I would be very interested to hear opinions of anybody who purchased it. It looks very interesting but as I've purchased 4 new games lately I want to make sure I'll like it before I but it.
Thanks!
I just read on HPS.com that Gettysburg comes with 314 scenarios!!! Now that's alot of scenarios!!!
Here's a page where you can read a lot more about it...
http://www.hist-sdc.com/getty/
I'm also going to start a new thread, so this doesn't get burried in our other discussions. ;)
Originally posted by Glenn Saunders
"....I just wish they would make an effort to improve the overall look."
It is a matter of economics guys!
Unfortunately graphics cost money and the market simply won't support those additional cost at the current time. Maybe it will improve sometime but for now there is no margin in making improvements in this area.
Glenn
Maybe sales would improve if Tiller developed a new game engine with a better look and interface. He's been milking the 'Battleground' engine for the last 10 years or so. It's getting very tired. No wonder 'the market' isn't as strong as he might like.
Originally posted by runyan99
Maybe sales would improve if Tiller developed a new game engine with a better look and interface. He's been milking the 'Battleground' engine for the last 10 years or so. It's getting very tired. No wonder 'the market' isn't as strong as he might like.
I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to trot out that 'very tired' argument. The interface may bear some resemblance, but the engine underneath is vastly more refined. I guess it benefits from 10 years of experience & development. :rolleyes:
Glenn Saunders
06 Sep 04, 14:54
> Maybe sales would improve if Tiller developed a new game engine with a better look and interface. He's been milking the 'Battleground' engine for the last 10 years or so. It's getting very tired. No wonder 'the market' isn't as strong as he might like.
Or maybe sales would drop. You see John Tiller is perhaps the most prolific wargame game marker of the last 5 years spawning a common interface in each Series and similarity in Series to Series that makes a transition from game to game easier.
That isn't to say that Gettysburg and Kursk are the same engine, any more than Norm Krogers Age of Rifles and TOAW is the same game. Both have the same style that the programmer uses to create his games.
That you feel the interface is tired to you may indeed be that it is similar to others - guys who don't want to completely relearn something else. Most of these players grew up with complex boardgames where manuals and rules were hundreds of pages - this alone caused me to drop from the Advanced Squad Leader series as I just couldn't keep up any more - no time.
Anyway - this is just a different spin on it - if you played Smolensk '41 a few years ago when it first came out and you remember or would pick it up again pretty quickly - you can also pick up a copy of Alamein pretty fast and be enjoying it, perhaps a lot faster than something completely different.
Glenn
Glenn
MKSheppard
07 Feb 05, 01:59
That you feel the interface is tired to you may indeed be that it is similar to others - guys who don't want to completely relearn something else.
Improvements could be made to the map graphics, and they could adopt the TOAW system of moving counters. You just click on the unit you want to move and then drag a transparent line across the map. With Tiller's current system, it's painful moving a lot of units around CLICK, CLICK CLICK CLICK for each single hex.
I believe I've mentioned this to you before, Glenn :)
KG_RangerBooBoo
07 Feb 05, 07:34
Use the Alt key. You can highlight a unit and then hold the Alt key down and click the hex where you want the unit to go to and it will move in that direction. You will have to be careful as sometimes the computer will move it in a straight line rather then a more winding path along the road but you can defeat that by clicking on a hex down the road and maybe doing it a couple of times instead of one click. You can also just highlight the hex the unit is in rather then selecting the unit, hold the Alt key down, and click the hex you want it to move to, and all the units in line with the front will follow. This really speeds up moving reinforcing units along roads, etc. You do have to be careful as if your units move next to one you didn't intend to move they will get sucked right along so watch that. Also, for some annoying reason, in Gettysburg they included rail lines and if it parallels the roads in places the column will jump to the rail line instead of staying on the roads. Just somethings you have to discipline yourself to watch for.
The most common way I move troops around the map is in column formation, with the highest ranking leader out front. Then I can take a Brigade, Division or even a Corps and move the entire thing at once. I double-click on the lead unit, press and hold the "Alt" key and then right-click on the destination hex. The entire column moves right along. with that single operation.
Exceptions to this would be if you have supply wagons mixed in with your troops (which historically would have really clogged things up and slowed them down). Or if some units are disrupted.
Now when you are moving into a combat posture you should address each unit individually, but personally I prefer that.
A lot has to do with becoming familiar with all the hot-keys the system has to offer.
Regards,
Rich
MKSheppard
07 Feb 05, 23:57
Use the Alt key. You can highlight a unit and then hold the Alt key down and click the hex where you want the unit to go to and it will move in that direction.
I want to move the unit, singular, not the entire formation. :p
TOAW, despite being a very old system from 1999 or so had a lot of
stuff that would be welcome in the Tiller Engine; making units report combat losses on map was a step in the right direction.
KG_RangerBooBoo
08 Feb 05, 07:30
If you select the individual unit rather then just the hex and use the Alt key, then only the selected unit will move. That is how you move a single unit. Selecting just the hex and using the Alt key moves the entire formation. This does take a little planning as Rich is right about supply wagons really fouling up road movement.
MKSheppard
08 Feb 05, 23:29
If you select the individual unit rather then just the hex and use the Alt key, then only the selected unit will move. That is how you move a single unit.
Incorrect.
You click on and select the unit with the LEFT mouse button,
and then you HOLD DOWN the left mouse button and move the cursor
to where you want the unit to move, then RELEASE the LMB. It took me some thinking to figure out. The Manual is rather vague on this:
To move units, you first select the units to move and then right click in an adjacent hex. Alternatively, you can click in the starting hex, move the mouse to the destination hex, and release the button (this is "drag-and-drop").
It needs to be rewritten to be more clear and concise on how
you "drag and drop".
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