Are helicopters too vulnerable in ACOW?

[Don Maddox]

I'm wondering what people think about this. It seems that in nearly every scenario I play my rotor wing assets get savaged almost before they get into the game. Now there is no doubt that rotory wing combat systems are quite vulnerable if they are hit, but hitting them is a bit of a trick due to their ability to fly low and use the terrain to great effect.

When a helicopter is brought down in real life it is almost always due to ground fire. I can't even remember the last time I heard of a helicopter actually being shot down (or interdicted in TOAW terminolgy) by a fixed wing aircraft. Yet this happens all the time in the game. Is ACOW a bit too unforgiving in this regard?

[Brevet]

Yeah, I hate when that noise happens and they disappear :(

Last night I moved some Egyptian attack helos one hex and poof, they were gone. It seems like they survive better when flying attack missions vs. relocating. They usually go into re-org after each attack, but survive to re-org again. Too many Israeli jets flying around...

[tigersqn]

In answer to your question: absolutely. You're right to say the large majority of helicopters are downed by ground fire, but even the effect of ground fire is being lessened with advancing technology. With mast mounted sights, a helicopter can stay hidden while still observing the enemy.

I think maybe the high casualties suffered by helicopters in TOAW may be a throwback to the Vietnam era. Doctrine was still being developed and there wasn't much experience available at the time for their use in combat. It was all a "work in progress".

I believe the US lost about 6000 helicopters in Vietnam. Now that sounds like TOAW.:eek:

Ironically enough, in most Vietnam scenarios I've played, my helicopter losses have been pretty reasonable; but then again the VC didn't have very many fighters in the air:cheeky:

[Tiberius]

I think another factor is that, at least in terms of U.S. helicopter losses, we rarely, if ever, faced enemy jet air superiority. I know I have taken heavy copter losses as Arabs against Israeli jets, and this seems realistic to me. Shouldn't an enemy with air superiority basically ground your helicopters?

[Don Maddox]

Originally posted by Tiberius
Shouldn't an enemy with air superiority basically ground your helicopters?

Possibly, but I would like to see one example of a helicopter being shot down by a jet, air superiority or no. Can anyone provide such an example?

I've been an Army aviator for 15 years and the only example of this that I can think of is the 2 UH-60 Blackhawks that were shot down over the no-fly zone in Iraq...by the US Air Force! Yes, it was a friendly fire incident in which the helicopters were not even attempting to fly tactical. They were simply flying from point A to point B and were engaged because of an IFF problem.

We all know that airpower is one of TOAW's weaknesses and I believe this is just one aspect of it.

[JMS]

If you mean a US helicopter, then you are right. Otherwise, the iraquis lost 6 in the final days of ODS: 2 to A-10s, 1 to an F-14 (AIM-9) and 3 to F-15s (AIM-7s). In the Balkans wars several were shot down by fighters. Helicopters can only operate unhindered when their side has air superiority, specially nowadays when doppler radar and/or PGMs can get them.

[Wolfe Tone]

I noticed when playing the Indian side in an Indo-Pak scenario that the choppers could take big losses. I think I tried to ensure a high level of Air superiority before moving them. If possible try to keep the amount of time over enemy occupied territory to a minimum, that should help. You can sacrifice some transport helicopters first if needs be, then move your combat units to where you want them to go. The combat ones work very well against tanks and can be used for direct attacks on enemy armour.

[Xandamere]

I've always kind of imagined a helicopters vs. jets fight would go like this: Jets spot helicopters (after being called for by ground forces, or radar, or AWACS, whatever). Jets come into range. Jets fire missiles. Helicopters (ALL the helicopters) crash and burn. The U.S. has never gone to war against a nation with a modern air force, we've always had near-complete air supremacy, so our helicopters can operate just fine.

[Tim McBride]

The problem is how fast modern jets fly. The helo's must be detected froma distance to be engaged. Also is the problem of engaging the helo's. If the chance of hostile jets is possible do you want to use you AAM's against a target that probally poses you no threat if it is not your primary mission? I'd want to save those babies for possible aircraft...........

_Tim