Possible methods of stopping cheating

[Marko]

It has come to my attention through dodgy opponents (not on this forum) that there is opportunity to mildy cheat when playing PBEM games. The first, and most obvious, method is the replaying of turns. Is there any way to check this does not happen ? Secondly, and more cunning, is swithing the game to standard rules, then opening your PBL file and then switching back to advanced - thus ensuring no units are in reorg !! Is there any way to stop this second method or at least discovering it's use ?

[Ben Turner]

Play respectable opponents? Honestly, there are dozens of ways to cheat at TOAW PBEM. If you get early turn ending, after you've saved your turn, you can press quit when it asks you what activity to perform next, then it will give a box asking if you're sure. If you say no, you can take another round.

[Red]

Nope, I dont think so.

You better choose your PBEM "partners":rolleyes: with care...

edit: oops, this was meant as a reply to Marko

[Marko]

Originally posted by Ben Turner
Play respectable opponents? Honestly, there are dozens of ways to cheat at TOAW PBEM. If you get early turn ending, after you've saved your turn, you can press quit when it asks you what activity to perform next, then it will give a box asking if you're sure. If you say no, you can take another round.

Yeah...I am aware of that one aswell. Respectability isn't always an option when playing close friends in heated competition !!:p

[Major Banned]

Originally posted by Marko
It has come to my attention through dodgy opponents (not on this forum) that there is opportunity to mildy cheat when playing PBEM games. The first, and most obvious, method is the replaying of turns. Is there any way to check this does not happen ? Secondly, and more cunning, is swithing the game to standard rules, then opening your PBL file and then switching back to advanced - thus ensuring no units are in reorg !! Is there any way to stop this second method or at least discovering it's use ?

I'd never heard of that one. Thanks, maybe now I can improve my win/loss record.

[Dan Neely]

Originally posted by Ben Turner
Play respectable opponents? Honestly, there are dozens of ways to cheat at TOAW PBEM. If you get early turn ending, after you've saved your turn, you can press quit when it asks you what activity to perform next, then it will give a box asking if you're sure. If you say no, you can take another round.

This isn't a cheat you can get away with against an alert opponent. a turn edned record is wrote to the replay, and will generate the same bzzt as an undo when watched. If you see a turn ended anywhere except at the end of your trun, your opponent is cheating.

[Bob Cross]

There is a way, and I've brought it up before, but it is very tedious. Quite simply, employ a referee.

Players would not be allowed to execute any attacks themselves. Rather, they would have to set up all attacks and send the saved file to the referee. He would then execute the attacks and send the result back or forward as required. He could also ensure that the interturn calculations were done correctly by requiring them to take place under his control.

[Marko]

Originally posted by Dan Neely


This isn't a cheat you can get away with against an alert opponent. a turn edned record is wrote to the replay, and will generate the same bzzt as an undo when watched. If you see a turn ended anywhere except at the end of your trun, your opponent is cheating.

Will check that out...thanks Dan

[Siberian HEAT]

There are ways to cheat that are impossible to detect. At least one that I know of anyway. The only way to combat it is to play well known opponents AND keep your own nose clean and honorable.

If you think your opponent is cheating, ask a veteran before sending out accusations. A few times I have been accused of cheating because what I was doing was misunderstood and considered impossible (7 or 8 phases in a turn for example).

Be a gracious winner. Someone who takes the time to cheat will probably feel good about themselves and enjoy rubbing it in.

A cheater probably won't engage you in helpful dialogue either.

A cheater PROBABLY won't have short turns. Every turn will be long and extremely good. This can be especially curious if the side they are playing has poor overall proficiency.

Keep your own nose clean. People DO ask other players what they think of so-and-so (ie YOU!). If you use an undo let your opponent know why. I prefer to let undos go unused as part of the penalty to myself for not paying attention. I think in 18 months I have used around 5 undos. I have seen other players have 5 undos in a turn! (none of my opponents - someone else's).

In summary most of us play this game because we love the challenge and enjoy both sides of the win/loss column as long as all games are fairly fought. I suppose cheating could be a problem, but my instinct tells me the cheaters don't really enjoy the game enough anyway and probably drop out of sight after a few games. :rolleyes:

[Kraut]

Originally posted by Siberian HEAT
If you use an undo let your opponent know why. I prefer to let undos go unused as part of the penalty to myself for not paying attention. I think in 18 months I have used around 5 undos. I have seen other players have 5 undos in a turn! (none of my opponents - someone else's).

I have to admit that I undo some turns, there are probably a few undos in every turn I send out but those are mostly unintended wrong clicks I undo (trying to get the popup-menu but clicking in a hex next to that unit that than starts moving is one of my all time favorites :rolleyes: ) or selecting dig in entire group when I only ment to dig in the first unit of a stack and so on.
Mistakes happen, thats why I don't care about the undos in my opponents turns (never even tried to find out whether they did an undo or not), I simply trust them that they are not cheating.

Most scenarios require many houres to finish and it would feel like wasted time if one can only win by cheating, right ?

[a white rabbit]

Originally posted by Ben Turner
Play respectable opponents? Honestly, there are dozens of ways to cheat at TOAW PBEM. If you get early turn ending, after you've saved your turn, you can press quit when it asks you what activity to perform next, then it will give a box asking if you're sure. If you say no, you can take another round.

..yeah but whether you can should be specified in the scen briefing..,

..mind you i didn't know about the simple rules on re-org, i wonder if the switch could be disabled..,

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by a white rabbit
..yeah but whether you can should be specified in the scen briefing..,

It's PBEM convention that this is cheating. You could permit it in a particular scenario- but you might as well just give 100% Force proficiency. More or less the same effect.

[Marko]

On the other hand the guy I am playing did inform me that the PBL file I sent him was corrupt and had the end of my turn, instead of the beginning of his. As a result he spotted by imminent offensive......;)

[Chuck?]

Actually there is way to cheat and see your opponents entire force even without the file being corrupted. The worse thing is it works every time. You can even see your opponents reinforcement schedule.

I don't know how this wasn't caught in bug testing but it slipped through.:cry:

[Major Banned]

Originally posted by Siberian HEAT
There are ways to cheat that are impossible to detect. At least one that I know of anyway. The only way to combat it is to play well known opponents AND keep your own nose clean and honorable.

If you think your opponent is cheating, ask a veteran before sending out accusations. A few times I have been accused of cheating because what I was doing was misunderstood and considered impossible (7 or 8 phases in a turn for example).

Be a gracious winner. Someone who takes the time to cheat will probably feel good about themselves and enjoy rubbing it in.

A cheater probably won't engage you in helpful dialogue either.

A cheater PROBABLY won't have short turns. Every turn will be long and extremely good. This can be especially curious if the side they are playing has poor overall proficiency.

Keep your own nose clean. People DO ask other players what they think of so-and-so (ie YOU!). If you use an undo let your opponent know why. I prefer to let undos go unused as part of the penalty to myself for not paying attention. I think in 18 months I have used around 5 undos. I have seen other players have 5 undos in a turn! (none of my opponents - someone else's).

In summary most of us play this game because we love the challenge and enjoy both sides of the win/loss column as long as all games are fairly fought. I suppose cheating could be a problem, but my instinct tells me the cheaters don't really enjoy the game enough anyway and probably drop out of sight after a few games. :rolleyes:

That and the fact, after a cheater has been identified, usually they can't get anymore games on a ladder (the ol word of mouth rule). And with so many people existing on more than one ladder, the word gets out to the gaming community fairly fast.
I think everyone realizes that there are cheats in just about any game system, but the people that utilize them don't usually last too long. Overall, I would say that the wargaming public is a fairly honest group of people. We may bicker and fight about some things, but when it comes down to game play, most everyone stays on the ethical high road. Those that don't are not around long.
Or they go hang out on the Matrix forums (Doh! Did I say that out loud?):whist:

[Grant]

A lot of these sorts of problems probably have a lot to do with the fact that Norm tried to optimize TOAW for vs. PO play- I remember reading a lot about that before Volume I came out. Take the Player 1/Player 2 asymmetries: they're much less of an issue in PO play, because it's possible for a side to get more than one turn in a row. This causes the Player 1/Player 2 order to change.

[Fading Captain]

Great Scott!!! After reading this thread I must say that my innocence has truly been violated and defiled. I never knew there were so many ways to cheat in this game. I will never be the same again.

But seriously, I've always had trouble understanding cheating in any game. Part of playing a game is operating your best within certain parameters: the rules! And if both sides don't follow the same set of rules, I think that that takes away any value that one might have in a victory. In the world of gaming, I just do no get cheating.

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Chuck
Actually there is way to cheat and see your opponents entire force even without the file being corrupted. The worse thing is it works every time. You can even see your opponents reinforcement schedule

You can see whatever you want if you change the .pbm file extension to .sce and open it up in the scenario editor. This is actually a useful design tool in some ways- but also a method of cheating.

[Marko]

At least with this thread everyone is made aware of potential methods of cheating. As Fading Captain touched upon,to cheat is to cheat yourself.

[Ben Turner]

Originally posted by Marko
At least with this thread everyone is made aware of potential methods of cheating. As Fading Captain touched upon,to cheat is to cheat yourself.

Quite. The aim of any game is to have fun- something I have to rely on in the Grand Strategy is players having this same philosophy. If they play to win things get very skewed.

[tigersqn]

cheating in a pbem game removes all traces of satisfaction from winning. How can you be satisfied with a tainted victory??
If you cheated & lost the scenario, play against the PO, then you might have a chance.:p :p :p

[Mantis]

Originally posted by Ben Turner


You can see whatever you want if you change the .pbm file extension to .sce and open it up in the scenario editor. This is actually a useful design tool in some ways- but also a method of cheating.

Much easier method. And perhaps more valuable, as you can see EXACTLY what your opponent saw. (Does he see my units sneaking along the coast, since this scenario has such low theatre recon?)

* Start fresh (important!) and load TOAW, then a PBEM file. What happens if you enter the wrong PW 3 times? Game crashes to desktop.

* Load TOAW. Load your own turn. You are now in the scenario, correct? Ok, NOW go load your own turn again, and screw up YOUR pw 3 times. The game defaults to your opponents end-of-turn. Hit cancel, and you can examine everything they can see/do.

I have used this method to create end-of-turn screenshots (yes, only of my turns, lol!) from a file that should be inaccessible.