View Full Version : Ha!
For the first time in about a hundred years, I don't owe anyone any turns!
Now, make the thread worthwhile, I'd like to ask if anyone has any new AARs that we could peruse? There hasn't been any for quite sometime, and I'm twitching for a little interesting reading. AARs for CoW in general if there's nothing new for EA.
Mark Stevens
12 Aug 02, 19:22
Dunno whether this qualifies as an AAR or merely a good weep, but in a game I am (was, hahaha) playing with Tero as the Axis we've got to turn 13 (October 1939) and he's taken - wait for it - Oslo, Belgrade, Warsaw, Athens, Gibraltar, and Paris!!!, and is a few hexes from El Alamein, causing me to post the following sad e-mail (hope you don't mind, Tero):
Quote
Congratulations on such a quick and decisive campaign, and for seeing the opportunity and executing it so well. (You know there's a 'but' on the way...)
I just can't see Germany sweeping through Italy and into Southern France in 1939, even if it had increased its Pre-War military. Can you? I've never read any suggestions that such an offensive was even contemplated. I'm happy with the idea that the pro-Axis Balkan nations would have fallen on Yugoslavia and Greece at the slightest excuse, since I know that they did in 1941. It's the German drive through Italy that's got me thinking, but I can't think of a sensible addition to the scenario to discourage or penalise it, short of some silly House Rule, which I don't like in principle. It wouldn't be right to remove any more of the Italian Armed forces, as they did have armies in Albania, Libya and the Horn in 1939, and a decent sized fleet and air force. You could rebuild the Italian DoW Option so that it doesn't activate until the Germans are within two of Paris, but this rather defeats the alternative history approach, which is what the scenario's supposed to encourage/allow. Maybe the Alpine border's still too porous, despite the fortifed line we're planning to introduce: should there be far more impassable Alpine hexes to restrict armour flooding over it? It wouldn't be right to alter Swiss entry, since the country did cling tightly to its neutrality, nor to fiddle with Belgian or Dutch entry. (I'm pretty well thinking aloud here.) Could the Germans have supplied a major offensive through Italy - arguably 'yes', because of the excellent Italian railway and autostrada network in the heavily industrialised north.
Have you got any ideas, or do you think that the offensive could have been stopped if I'd reacted more quickly?
I wonder whether there should be an Allied Pre-War Builds option, similar to the one for the Germans, or would we just get a slogging match somewhere?
Unquote
Essentially, the game hinged on Tero taking the Axis Pre-War builds, activating Italy early, and sweeping through the Alps into France, while the Axis minor allies in Central Europe took care of Yugoslavia and Greece.
Any and all comments welcome!
The same happened to me in an EA game that is on ice for the moment because me and my opponent discovered DnO and that monster occupies a lot of time :D
He took the prewar buildup, took Oslo on turn one, Warsaw on turn two and Belgrade on turn 3 or 4 (Athen follows quickly).
He invaded France through the Low Countrys and through Italy at the same time. France was defeated even before the ReOrg units could appear. He used the Case Yellow bonus to assault and take Malta and Gibralta by sea, even thou I reinforced both with additional UK troops. Only Cease Fire safed me from being overrun in NA.
On March 31st 1940 he took Suez and the US joind the war (I took 2 LLs)
The victory dialog says enemy losses: 4 , friendly losses: 39.
He already starts massing his troops at the russian border and has almost complete control of NA.
I don't think that I made any major mistakes, I prevented any breakthroughs in France and forced him to kill almost the entire french army on his way to Paris (what he did).
It'll be a tough time for the poor Reds in Barbarossa :-/
In my game with Raver (me Allied) we are now at turn 12 and the following has happened:
Turn 1: Germany and Italy build carrier fleet.
German excersises pre-war build.
France extends Maginiot line.
Turn 4: Germany builds Seigfried line.
Turn 9: Soviets invade Persia.
Looks like we won't be seeing any real fighting till 1940. The extended Maginiot line has saved the world from destruction!
for now ;)
My game with Chuck has been VERY busy from turn one. Heck, the French even held several German hexes for a few turns. Maybe Chuck would be so kind as to do an AAR for us :)
I am curious about one thing... The Belgiums joined the Allies on turn two and I declared war on the Netherlands (Chuck was busy fighting the Poles and the French needed better access to German soil) on turn 4, I think. I was wondering if the "declare war on the low countries" t/o was still available for Chuck after this along with the bennies it gives.
Besides the United States entering quickly I'm not sure what can be done. Some ideas:
1.) Early activation of Italy gives French some type of defensive bonus along the Alps.
2.) Start Allied units off in better defense positions.
3.) Put a few more of the Axis units off rail lines at start.
Originally posted by SkyVon
My game with Chuck has been VERY busy from turn one. Heck, the French even held several German hexes for a few turns. Maybe Chuck would be so kind as to do an AAR for us :)
I am curious about one thing... The Belgiums joined the Allies on turn two and I declared war on the Netherlands (Chuck was busy fighting the Poles and the French needed better access to German soil) on turn 4, I think. I was wondering if the "declare war on the low countries" t/o was still available for Chuck after this along with the bennies it gives.
I was under pressure early in this game as SkyVon put the bulk of his units through the Maginot Line and Belgium while I was busy with Norway and Poland. One French recon unit got 100-150 km over the Rhine, scaring the good citizens of Germany.
It was a struggle for a while but every turn more rested units from Poland were railed in and eventually I began pushing the Allies back toward the Maginot Line and Belgium.
At this point it didn't look good as the Allied defenses were very strong. So I sent the bulk of my mobile units toward Switzerland, started 'Case Yellow' and put some Panzer and Mech corps into the French rear toward Bourges.
Kept the pressure up and got to Paris just as winter was nearing. However my attacks on the French capital failed so spent the entire cease fire period resting units for the final assualt.
On the first turn after the cease fire I took Paris with about 20 rested divisions.
Also the declare war on the low countries is still available in the TO window.
Originally posted by Chuck
Besides the United States entering quickly I'm not sure what can be done. Some ideas:
1.) Early activation of Italy gives French some type of defensive bonus along the Alps.
2.) Start Allied units off in better defense positions.
3.) Put a few more of the Axis units off rail lines at start.
1) If the germans would come through the Alps it would be a surprise for the French, they wouldn't have time to build additional defences. It could activate the 'French call up every man to arms' event.
2.) No, because that wouldn't reflect history. The French army was deployed behind the Maginot Line and in the north to prevent another german attack through the Low Countrys as in WW1
3) That could only slow down the Axis for 1 turn... won't help that much :)
Originally posted by Mark Stevens
Dunno whether this qualifies as an AAR or merely a good weep, but in a game I am (was, hahaha) playing with Tero as the Axis we've got to turn 13 (October 1939) and he's taken - wait for it - Oslo, Belgrade, Warsaw, Athens, Gibraltar, and Paris!!!, and is a few hexes from El Alamein, causing me to post the following sad e-mail (hope you don't mind, Tero):
Quote
Congratulations on such a quick and decisive campaign, and for seeing the opportunity and executing it so well. (You know there's a 'but' on the way...)
I just can't see Germany sweeping through Italy and into Southern France in 1939, even if it had increased its Pre-War military. Can you? I've never read any suggestions that such an offensive was even contemplated. I'm happy with the idea that the pro-Axis Balkan nations would have fallen on Yugoslavia and Greece at the slightest excuse, since I know that they did in 1941. It's the German drive through Italy that's got me thinking, but I can't think of a sensible addition to the scenario to discourage or penalise it, short of some silly House Rule, which I don't like in principle. It wouldn't be right to remove any more of the Italian Armed forces, as they did have armies in Albania, Libya and the Horn in 1939, and a decent sized fleet and air force. You could rebuild the Italian DoW Option so that it doesn't activate until the Germans are within two of Paris, but this rather defeats the alternative history approach, which is what the scenario's supposed to encourage/allow. Maybe the Alpine border's still too porous, despite the fortifed line we're planning to introduce: should there be far more impassable Alpine hexes to restrict armour flooding over it? It wouldn't be right to alter Swiss entry, since the country did cling tightly to its neutrality, nor to fiddle with Belgian or Dutch entry. (I'm pretty well thinking aloud here.) Could the Germans have supplied a major offensive through Italy - arguably 'yes', because of the excellent Italian railway and autostrada network in the heavily industrialised north.
Have you got any ideas, or do you think that the offensive could have been stopped if I'd reacted more quickly?
I wonder whether there should be an Allied Pre-War Builds option, similar to the one for the Germans, or would we just get a slogging match somewhere?
Unquote
Essentially, the game hinged on Tero taking the Axis Pre-War builds, activating Italy early, and sweeping through the Alps into France, while the Axis minor allies in Central Europe took care of Yugoslavia and Greece.
Any and all comments welcome!
The problem is that there's no real reason why not to activate Italy early. Yugoslavia and Greece joining the Allies is hardly any penalty. Even if Rumania won't join the Axis, a decent German force through Austria will reach Belgrade quite soon and after that you'll get all the minors. In fact this might even make the Balkans a bit easier for the Axis, because no Allied player won't probably try to make a big stand in Greece while at the same time he should be shipping troops to the desert. And if the Allies are in good defensive position in the Alps, there's no stopping putting a small mask force there and then steaming through the Low Countries.
I think the issue is not that this approach makes France easier, but that it allows taking (using Case Yellow) Malta and Gibraltar and sweeping through the Middle East before the Allies can move a muscle. I must say I'm quite ignorant on the historical Mediterranean theatre, but I recall Malta would have been tough to get (impossible once the Allies reinforced it?) and seaborne assault to Gibraltar was totally out of the question. With Case Yellow you get them both, even if they're reinforced. I can't think of any other fixes for this, except a House Rule that Case Yellow and subsequent Axis shock penalty rounds institute a cease fire on all other fronts (5 turns). If the Axis are allowed to take everything in the Med, it will be +7 Axis, and -7 Allies supply. Attack on the SU will be much easier.
I think at least few things could be done:
1. Put the Axis supply point in the Horn back to Mogadishu. Allies are on minimum possible supply there (due to those sea roads) and the Axis position is too strong, since all they have to do is dig in around Addis Abeba and wait for the Allies to starve.
2. Bolster the Alpine Defences or/and add some impassable hexes. (Although an Allied player shouldn't strip the whole region, before they know where the Germans attack)
3. Case Yellow House Rule. Other option would be that "Early Italy" weakens the bonus, but would that be appropriate?
Re your quote. If you sent it to me by e-mail, I never got it, so I answer here.
"Have you got any ideas, or do you think that the offensive could have been stopped if I'd reacted more quickly?"
Like I said in an e-mail, where I suggested that we abandon this game, you could, and should, have done better in France. Certainly send more troops there immediately, but you didn't do it until it was too late. I only lost about 2000-3000 HRS's in the whole campaign! Apart from that and judging from Kraut's post above, everything else is pretty inevitable. Besides, France is not really the point in this.
Finally, I could say I told you all this stuff before, when this "Early Italy" thing came up on the old (Ulver's) Board, but since I'm such a polite man, I won't
:D
some suggestions: The early activation of Italy should free the Yugo and Greek units to move and redeploy but this shouldn't be a DoW against germany! If these two countrys declare war on germany the Axis can invade both without selecting their TO to attack them and therby save 10 US EEV points!
But if these countrys can redeploy their troops a german attack will probably be more costly.
Maybe an additional houserule: no german units in NA before Paris is taken (including attacks on Malta/Gibraltar)?
Originally posted by Kraut
some suggestions: The early activation of Italy should free the Yugo and Greek units to move and redeploy but this shouldn't be a DoW against germany! If these two countrys declare war on germany the Axis can invade both without selecting their TO to attack them and therby save 10 US EEV points!
But if these countrys can redeploy their troops a german attack will probably be more costly.
Maybe an additional houserule: no german units in NA before Paris is taken (including attacks on Malta/Gibraltar)?
Sounds good. Winter War cease fire would be in order as well. I recall someone using Operation Yellow to storm Leningrad! Not very realistic.
Dan Neely
13 Aug 02, 15:44
Originally posted by Tero
[B]
1. Put the Axis supply point in the Horn back to Mogadishu. Allies are on minimum possible supply there (due to those sea roads) and the Axis position is too strong, since all they have to do is dig in around Addis Abeba and wait for the Allies to starve.
are we playing the same game? the italians in ethiopia are the ones in a hopeless position, not the brits. using only the forces deployed when italy entered the war, I've destroyed almost all of the italians over the course of about 2 months. This turn I assulted Addis Abbaba, and despite the italians having 2:1 numerical odds, and all of my attacking units being in the red, I evaporated several corps leaving only the armored train and air unit in the city. 1 additional corp remains 2 hexes away. I expect to obliterate the remaining defenders the following turn and send my battered forces for an extended R&R in sunny Alexandria before redeploying them elsewhere.
2. Bolster the Alpine Defences or/and add some impassable hexes. (Although an Allied player shouldn't strip the whole region, before they know where the Germans attack)
yep. Until the germans commit themselves in the elsewhere I leave a half dozen divisions backing the alpine gaurd up, with annother dozen ready to be railed south if needed.
3. Case Yellow House Rule. Other option would be that "Early Italy" weakens the bonus, but would that be appropriate?
IMO doing it would be overly complex. Instead I'd suggest not making the case yellow bonus available until 1940. Attacking without the bonus is a good way to gut the Warmacht. Signifigantly increasing the EV penalty for bringing italy into the war, and making it's entry free when the germans approach Paris could also work.
Wasn't this problem solved when Mark made several of the Italian corp not available at the start of the war? I've got to think the Axis forces are stretched pretty thin if they begin attacking everybody right off at the start.
Originally posted by Dan Neely
IMO doing it would be overly complex. Instead I'd suggest not making the case yellow bonus available until 1940. Attacking without the bonus is a good way to gut the Warmacht. Signifigantly increasing the EV penalty for bringing italy into the war, and making it's entry free when the germans approach Paris could also work.
I think thats an excellent idea!
Originally posted by Dan Neely
are we playing the same game? the italians in ethiopia are the ones in a hopeless position, not the brits. using only the forces deployed when italy entered the war, I've destroyed almost all of the italians over the course of about 2 months. This turn I assulted Addis Abbaba, and despite the italians having 2:1 numerical odds, and all of my attacking units being in the red, I evaporated several corps leaving only the armored train and air unit in the city. 1 additional corp remains 2 hexes away. I expect to obliterate the remaining defenders the following turn and send my battered forces for an extended R&R in sunny Alexandria before redeploying them elsewhere.
Yes, you may be right. Although the Italians there are quite incalculable, sometimes they give a decent fight, other times run away the moment they see the first Brit. I've played it once as the Allies and it felt like I got Addis Abeba at the eleventh hour. Supplies were down to 1% and I recall at least one British/French unit was evaporated. 2 months is quite long, if the Axis make a big push in the Middle East, you'll need all the help you can get.
Originally posted by Dan Neely
IMO doing it would be overly complex. Instead I'd suggest not making the case yellow bonus available until 1940. Attacking without the bonus is a good way to gut the Warmacht. Signifigantly increasing the EV penalty for bringing italy into the war, and making it's entry free when the germans approach Paris could also work.
The problem is that this would pretty much take out the option to attack France in 39. I don't think many players would be willing to try their luck in France without the bonus.
Mark Stevens
13 Aug 02, 19:39
Plenty of interesting ideas buzzing about.
I would prefer to work on:
no 'Case Yellow' Option before Spring 1940, whether the French and British are at war with Germanyy, on the basis that the German army hadn't perfected the techniques of blitzkreig, the Manstein Plan was only developed in Winter 1939 (actually Febraury 1940) and OKH was very unwilling to tackle the French Army
a few more Alpine hexes along the Italian-French border - looking at a map, a few more of those 'mountain' hexes could reasonably be counted as impassable
Yugoslavia and Greece mobilise, without actually joining the Allies and DoWing Germany, if Italy enters the war before the Germans are within two of Paris. I realise that a prudent Axis Player will have units positioned for an 'Operation Marita' anyway, so it may not make that much difference, but it might give them a turn to shuffle into a better defensive position.
Perhaps beef up the Gibraltar and Malta defenses, but there were Axis plans to attack both, so we must avoid making them absolutely impregnable.
I've just received SkyVon's magnum opus on air units, and it clearly requires a lot of study: the research is very impressive, but I'm not sure whether it can be incorporated in the current scenario without a lot of extra work - maybe (h)!?
The first three things are going to take some work and testing, and rewriting of the News Strings to make the situation clear. Any violent objections from anyone?
Dan Neely
13 Aug 02, 20:51
Originally posted by Mark Stevens
[B]Plenty of interesting ideas buzzing about.
I would prefer to work on:
no 'Case Yellow' Option before Spring 1940, whether the French and British are at war with Germanyy, on the basis that the German army hadn't perfected the techniques of blitzkreig, the Manstein Plan was only developed in Winter 1939 (actually Febraury 1940) and OKH was very unwilling to tackle the French Army
I'd suggested it.
a few more Alpine hexes along the Italian-French border - looking at a map, a few more of those 'mountain' hexes could reasonably be counted as impassable
fine by me. I'd rahter have a smaller number of divisional sized forces on the border.
Yugoslavia and Greece mobilise, without actually joining the Allies and DoWing Germany, if Italy enters the war before the Germans are within two of Paris. I realise that a prudent Axis Player will have units positioned for an 'Operation Marita' anyway, so it may not make that much difference, but it might give them a turn to shuffle into a better defensive position.
couldn't hurt. As long as it doesn't cost events, I say go for it.
Perhaps beef up the Gibraltar and Malta defenses, but there were Axis plans to attack both, so we must avoid making them absolutely impregnable.
I can't speak for gibralter, but until the brits reinforced Malta the axis was seriously considering assaulting it. Like I've mentioned before, they'd gathered the supplies to carry out in June 42 but Hitler decided to send the resources to support Rommels drive to Alexandria. Before the axis was ready to make annother attempt the allies heavily reinforced rendering the option impossible. COW comes with a scenario covering the hypothetical invasion, and the axis does have a good chance of winning it.
I don't mind any of the suggestions as Mark outlined them. But I do have a comment of the idea of attacking France without Case Yellow...
I don't use it anymore. I just finished crushing France in a game with Raver, and my total losses are 39k HRSs. I took out France, the Low Countries, Norway, Yugo, Greece, the Suez and now have a land link right up to Persia. France also included destroying both 5-5 Brit reserve corps, 2 large 8-8 mechs, and a couple of the smaller mechs. And before you ask, yes, Raver put up a very competent defence of France; it was no cake-walk.
My losses seem to be in line with the 30k HRSs average for crushing France, in spite of the fact there were numerous heavy Brits there, and I didn't use the Yellow bonus. (Why piss off the Yanks more than you have to?)
I know it would have been easier with the bonus, but I don't feel it's a requirement. It's the same as the Barbarossa bonus. Perhaps in a more conventional game (straight east front only, no southern front thru Persia) it's required, but in a game with Dan right now, I have yet to use it, and (from my side) I seem to be folding up the Reds just fine. This was discussed in an earlier thread, and I've been attempting to crush Russia without using it al all, to point out the fact that I feel there should be some sort of time limit on using it. The early attacks on Russia don't require it, but if you save if til it's really needed, you might only be activating it once you're just outside the gates of Mosocw.
I realize that there must be some German flexability in this (most Russian players have their main line WAAAAY back from the front, so using it at the oening of hostilities is a waste) but at the same time, too much leeway gives the German player a distinct advantage. Also, keep in mind that perhaps this is only evident if you come at Russia from 3 fronts (Finland, Caucasus, E.F.).
Let me player the devils advocate for a moment. Isn't the point the of Axis pre-builds and the +35 US Entry variable so the Axis player can make unhistorical fast progess at the start of the scenario?
If the scenario is redesigned to take away 'Case Yellow' in 1939 and strengthen the Allied position in the Alps and the Balkans what use is the pre-builds anyway? Poland and Norway can obviously be taken without them very quickly. A 'Case Yellow' in 1940 doesn't require the pre-builds either.
Dan Neely
14 Aug 02, 22:49
I'd always felt the prewar builds were to give the axis a hand in an EC, not to speed things up in the west. But how hard would it be to give case yellow in 39 with the builds and 40 without?
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